Monday, July 25, 2005

Minion and Political Correctness

Over the weekend there was a fairly spirited debate going on. I blame it all on Howard J Rogers, and a recent blog entry of his. The basic thought: "are some people above reproach for some reason".

The debate wasn’t over the answer to that question, that question has a fairly obvious (to me) and easy answer:


No one is above reproach, everything can and should be debated. Experts are often wrong. Besides, being above reproach would be way too much pressure. You would actually have to be right all of the time.  Some people are correct frequently, but no one is 100% correct all of the time.  A simple typo can alter the meaning of a simple sentence.  A discussion forum I belong to had someone post “The Importance of proof reading”:

"Setting db_cache_advice will incur some latch overhead, though it is usually very significant."

See how two tiny little letters, I and N, could make all of the difference in this sentence!  Without them, well, it not only reads funny but says the wrong thing (this was a metalink support note being quoted, it has been fixed).  Mistakes are easy to make, we all make them, point them out as they happen. Fixing material is easy, really.

Back to the debate however, the debate was about the use of a particular word – “minion”.  Some people found the use of that term to be derogatory and others not so. (sidebar: I myself have never thought of the word minion in the positive sense and the one time it was flung out on asktom, I’m pretty sure the person using it did not mean it in a positive way).  It made me think about how hard it is to communicate sometimes, over cultural boundaries, in text, without seeing the face.

I don’t like talking on the phone, I find it hard to carry on a conversation without seeing the facial expression.  Two times in the last dozen years at Oracle I’ve had conference calls go really bad.  I remember both of them.  In both cases, I aborted the call prematurely (politely but – we really needed to just hang up) and visited them in person.  After 5 minutes of face to face – we got down to business and things went really well.  But without being able to see each other, read the body language, see the raised eyebrow, crossed arms, dis-interest, whatever – it was just not working.

The same thing happens when we “converse” in text. We try many things to make up for it – smileys, “air quotes”, tons of detail, “don’t get me wrongs” and such – but the fact is you can read the same text many different ways. But conveying the emotion, the intent – that is really hard to do.  A joke not interpreted as a joke becomes an insult. Sarcasm is missed and taken as honest advice instead (“suuuurrrreee, go ahead, type format and see what happens”)

Over the years, I’ve learned that “the less you know someone, the less you should read into the text”.  What I mean is, if someone I know pretty well sends me something – I have enough information about “them” in my mind to be able to read a possible message behind the message.  On the other hand, if I don’t know someone very well, I ignore hidden, possible messages and just go by what is there – giving the benefit of the doubt in all cases, being forgiving of things that come off insulting – but might not have been intended that way.

For example “Hey Kyte …”. Calling people by their last name where I come from isn’t a sign of respect, but in other parts of the world it is and “Hey Tom…” would be considered rude where they are. First couple of times I got the “Hey Kyte” – it didn’t sit right. Now, it is just another thing to call me.

“I have doubts…”, doesn’t sound right, sounds like they are questioning “me” – not that they have confusion surrounding what was said.  Depending on the context, “I have doubts” many times comes out sounding wrong.  I silently translate that into “I have some followup questions”.

“Please do the needful ASAP”.  I’ll translate that into “If you can get back to me with anything, even “I don’t know”, as soon as you have time, I’d much appreciate it”. 

I find if I treat things that way, things go much smoother (for me). Guess I’m saying it takes more to ruffle my feathers than it used to 10 years ago. I give the written word the benefit of the doubt. Don’t get me wrong – if you come along and say ‘well, that’s the biggest pile of rubbish I’ve ever seen written’ without any sort of supporting evidence whatsoever (and people do :) expect to receive a truly smart response from me. But, it takes something that strong to elicit that sort of response.  If you come along and say “I don’t think that is quite right” and provide some supporting evidence – great, we’ll see what the truth is.  And that is what is important isn’t it?  How stuff actually works, today. So please, bring it on.

On a related note, beware political correctness too. Consider this article:

The word "fail" should be banned from use in classrooms and replaced with the phrase "deferred success" to avoid demoralising pupils, a group of teachers has proposed.

Sugar and spice and everything nice, but it doesn’t accurately describe the reality that “they failed that grade”.

So, keep the comments and criticism coming.  Be polite (sure, makes sense), but don’t over correct.  Be careful in your choice of words, words have meanings and come with their own baggage sometimes. I tend to read and re-read my replies a couple of times and try to edit out the flaming sarcasm when appropriate (remember, sometimes sarcasm is useful in making a point and not insulting to the person reading it).



Blogger Jeff Hunter said....

Experts are often wrong. Besides, being above reproach would be way too much pressure. You would actually have to be right all of the time. Some people are correct frequently, but no one is 100% correct all of the time.
If you're correct 100% of the time, you're not trying hard enough.

I have doubts
Yes, I thought this odd the first few times I encountered it when answering questions. I wonder of they have "questions" when walking down the aisle?

Mon Jul 25, 02:27:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Bill S. said....

[quote]Jeff Hunter said....
I have doubts
Yes, I thought this odd the first few times I encountered it [/quote]
Seems to be an ESL issue mostly (English as Second Language). I thought it sounded a bit peculiar too, but in context it is usually easy to see they typically mean "I'm not so sure about this, a little fuzzy please clarify".

As for being right, well I haven't found an expert yet who is right all of the time. Although my wife has a pretty good success rate ;-D.

And no, she doesn't read Tom's blog so I'm not getting any brownie points with that one. :P

Mon Jul 25, 03:37:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Mark A. Williams said....

> For example “Hey Kyte …”

I believe former Indiana University basketball coach Bob Knight might agree with that one...

- Mark

Mon Jul 25, 03:47:00 PM EDT  

Blogger David Aldridge said....

I'm sure that international differences do play an enormous role in this issue -- I recall a recent article on the differences between the use of email in Germany and America. As you might guess, much more formal and considered in Germany, much less formal and impulsive in America, leading to frustration and bafflement on both side.

Use of family names also seems tricky -- in the UK I was virtually unaware of the surnames of many of my collegues (we didn't rely somuch onemail either, which may besignificant), and coming to the US and being addressed as "Aldridge" made me feel like I was back at school! Maybe it was just the uber-macho environment of that company/project though -- I've noticed more relaxed greetings elsewhere.

It's a minefield, to be sure.

Mon Jul 25, 04:35:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Anonymous said....

I have doubts

I've discovered over the years that it's possible to deduce some pretty interesting things about a person's native language by the peculiar way he/she says things in English.

Take that word "doubt". It always seems to be people from the Indian Subcontinent who confuse it with "question". My working theory is that Hindi and/or its sister languages probably have either a single word with both shades of meaning, or two very similar words. I'd love to know if I'm right.

Mon Jul 25, 04:43:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Anonymous said....

The best advice I ever got from a fellow programmer on how to deal with people, be it other programmer or users or customers ..."You can't be right all of the time ... but you can be nice all of the time"

Mon Jul 25, 04:47:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Pete_S said....

The role of firstname, lastname is very cultural. For a while I worked in Pakistan where I was called "Mr Peter" as they got to know me better it became Scott... oh well.

The word "fail" should be banned from use in classrooms and replaced with the phrase "deferred success" to avoid demoralising pupils, a group of teachers has proposed. - my car crashed because the brakes had a deferred success.

Mon Jul 25, 04:48:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Scot said....

With regards to taking the word fail out of education...That seems to be a definite trend among certain groups in America (and apparently elsewhere).

Thing is, calling it something different doesn't magically give the kid who bombed his algebra test a sense ofself- confidence, because the kid is smart enough to know that he failed the test no matter what you actually call it.

And what kind of respect is he going to have of you as a knowledgeable teacher and evaluator if you don't even know enough to tell him when he screwed up?

Then there is the fact that without failure there is no such thing as success. How can you feel good and have a sense of accomplishment for succeeding when there is no other alternative?

Oh, and as for the minor detail as to whether there is actually such a thing as failure in the real world, you know, the place that school is intended to prepare students for, well, just ask the dodo Bird.

Mon Jul 25, 04:49:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Anonymous said....

Non-verbal communication ... a very interesting topic in itself ... 20 years ago when I was working on a computer science degree ... I took a communications class. Day one - the instructor pointed out that I was the only "technical" person in the class and he questioned why I was there. I told him even computer-science-geeks had to communicate verbally and through written word. Smile! When it came time for a class project worth 50% of the grade, the instructor warned us that there was no subject he hadn't seen throughly covered in his 30+ years of teaching ... we each submitted our proposals ... he came back to the class and said "the techie" had come up with something he had never seen covered before ... I proposed to do my paper on the science of non-verbal communication as it applied to collaboration over what we all know today as "the internet" [back then only us techies knew about it and how to use it] ... it was a very eye opening experience on the problems of time differences, cultural differences, emotion-cons ;) ... I wouldn't doubt that there are entire courses taught in it now that "the internet" is a part of everyone's daily life regardless of their profession ... oh, and I got an A!

Mon Jul 25, 04:57:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Alberto Dell'Era said....

It's also worth noting that email being "low-bandwidth" as far as emotions are concerned, it may be a *huge* advantage, especially when discussing technical matters.

In fact, the most successfull "meetings" I've had with customers, have been developed 95% by email.

a) when writing, you can correct, reshape, etc, what you want to say (the more succinct the better usually), and then "send the message", sometimes even discovering faults in your reasoning (since obviously ones thinks about the possible objections coming from the reader while writing, and the unconscious [hint to "Blink"] is more than happy to provide them in abundance);

b) [most importantly] you *force* the reader to read until the end, instead of having him/her interrupt your reasoning at the first glance of a disturbing point (for him/her) - something that happens quite frequently in face-to-face conversations, especially involving "emotional" or "overdefensive" people.
Reading until the end, the reader can get the whole picture, and say "hey, it's win-win after all - great!"

Probably that applies to asktom as well - which is, quite frequently, a sort of "meeting by email", a Tom-and-spoke kind of course ;)

Mon Jul 25, 05:25:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Howard J. Rogers said....

I think you supplied an 'obvious' answer to the wrong question.

The question wasn't "should some experts above reproach", but "are they in fact treated as such".

Your emphatic "No" is the correct response to the former question, and is indeed expected and obvious, as you say it should be. But whether it is the right answer to the latter is debateable. If the answer there happens to be 'yes', then that is not your fault (or any other experts' faults). It means there is something wrong with the critics. Self-censorship or something.

PS. I am a great fan of sarcasm. The heavier the better, usually.

Mon Jul 25, 07:00:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Anonymous said....

Take that word "doubt". It always seems to be people from the Indian Subcontinent who confuse it with "question". My working theory is that Hindi and/or its sister languages probably have either a single word with both shades of meaning, or two very similar words. I'd love to know if I'm right.

You are right about the fact that "I have a doubt" usually comes from folks from India. I am from India and the only reason I can remember why I used to use "doubt" in that sense is because my teacher used it, like "If you have a doubt, raise your hand". I cannot seem to relate this to local languages (including Hindi and others) since we have very specific words relating to question, confusion etc.

Mon Jul 25, 07:11:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Renee said....

I was part of that spirited debate and haven't revisited the thread since my last comment. Dead horse flogging gets old fast. (Just how did that expression come about anyway?)

Deferred success... I had lunch today with two high school teachers. They are not keen on the political correctness thrust on them. It does their students no favors in the long run.

Mon Jul 25, 08:03:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Robert Vollman said....

I had a manager once who used email for everything. Never phone, never face-to-face. And he was about 30 feet down the hall. Needless to say, he wasn't well liked.

Recently I had an email exchange go very, very badly. Reminded me of how I like to avoid email at all costs. No matter how carefully words are chosen, people read into it from their own perspective and biases.

Mon Jul 25, 08:03:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Thomas Kyte said....

Robert Vollman said... I had a manager once who used email for everything.

I use email to schedule a face to face :)

people read into it from their own perspective and biases.

Not all people - I used to. It took a mindset change to stop. Now I try to take it at face value - BUT our vernacular still gets in the way (50 cent word meaning "our culture" in this context)

I had a chance to listen to the US Senator Max Cleland speak once (excellent speaker, I still remember the talk over two years later which says something). He explained this phenomena well by saying "You know, if you are from the south, you can say anything about anybody you want - as long as you end it with 'bless his|her heart'"

"Aunt Sue is a mean ole coot, bless her heart" :)

See, doesn't that sound nice..

All depends on the culture and what you are used to hearing.

Mon Jul 25, 08:14:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Jeff Hunter said....

For a while I worked in Pakistan where I was called "Mr Peter" While going to college I lived with a guy we called "Mr. Peter" but his name was Paul.

Mon Jul 25, 08:52:00 PM EDT  

Blogger David Aldridge said....

" While going to college I lived with a guy we called "Mr. Peter" but his name was Paul."

That was so Obfuscation Unlimited ... :)

Tue Jul 26, 12:56:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Alberto Dell'Era said....

Robert Vollman said : Recently I had an email exchange go very, very badly. Reminded me of how I like to avoid email at all costs.

But a face-to-face conversation can go as badly as an email exchange ...

I wasn't, obviously, suggesting to ditch all communications channels and turn to email only; I use the phone and face-to-face too, depending on the topic discussed, the personality of people I'm talking to, etcetera.

But IMHO the written word (email or letter) is still one of the best ways to communicate your ideas clearly and succinctly, and, especially, to avoid that emotions kick in and disrupt (language barriers aside).

You can also mix the channels together - eg sometimes, when the stakes are high, I carefully write am email, phone the addressees separately to be sure they understood what I was trying to say (and clear any emotional problem from the very beginning), schedule a phone call and perhaps a face-to-face. Exploiting the advantages of every channel.

Tue Jul 26, 05:36:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Rachel said....

alberto said:

eg sometimes, when the stakes are high, I carefully write am email, phone the addressees separately

and I'll sometimes do the opposite -- have the face-to-face meeting and follow it up with an email along the lines of "just to ensure I understood everythng correctly, this is what I believe we agreed upon...."

I like all the varied forms of communication we have available (email makes it easy to stay in touch with friends and family in widely ranging time zones). There are openings for misunderstanding in all of them. I think Tom's way, of starting out with the assumption that no offense is meant, works well

Tue Jul 26, 06:55:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Jeff Hunter said....

That was so Obfuscation Unlimited ... :)
Your mind is warped.

Tue Jul 26, 07:14:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Tim... said....

Your mind is warped.

Are we talking about Scotty again?

Tue Jul 26, 09:10:00 AM EDT  

Anonymous Harry said....

The lesson to be taken from this discussion is, regardless of the medium or mode, communication is an integral part of any project or activity, and it requires preparation and commitment. I've got an old cartoon, from the early days of my computing career, that shows a room of programmers sitting at their desks while the manager, heading out the door, says "You guys start coding, I'll go find out what they want!". The IT field has too many times fallen into something like this. During my years as a development manager, before state budgets were cut so severely that development staffs became unknown, I regularly had to make developers slow down, take a breather, and actually talk to the users to make sure they knew what they wanted. And to being this back to the original, I tried to find ways to talk to lower-level users, rather than just the managers (and out of earshot of the managers), because less-senior users would rarely dispute their managers face to face. This led to some serious development errors, because let's face it, no matter how good the senior manager is, he/she isn't going to know the level of detail that the worker bees do.

Tue Jul 26, 09:37:00 AM EDT  

Anonymous Renee said....

At our company, like so many others, we are bombarded with too many emails. As a result, they are all skimmed over. The longer the email, the less likely anyone is to digest everything in it. In fact, the longer it is, the more annoyed people are with the lack of brevity. As a result, even less of it is skimmed.

Then there's the attachments...

Tue Jul 26, 09:49:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Joel Garry said....

Origin of Beating a Dead Horse

For some reason, I was accused of being demeaning for posting this link, but I sure didn't mean it that way. It seems like a fair contribution to a discussion of the cross-cultural language issue to me.

Minion may be not quite what you expect.

Tue Jul 26, 10:26:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Tom Best said....

A co-worker once called me over to her cube to look at an email she'd composed. All it said was,

"Person's name: Could you please do the thing with the stuff so this gets cleared up. Thanks. Signer's name"

or something like that.

She was asking if it sounded demanding. I recommended removing the "please". Believe it or not, "please" sounds a little more agressive than if you were to leave it out. I don't know how that's come to be, but it has. She made that change, liked it, and then put an exclamation point after the "Thanks". There, that was an inoffensive as it could be, and she clicked send.

Isn't it interesting what conveys attitude and inflection in written communication?

Tue Jul 26, 10:52:00 AM EDT  

Anonymous Peter K said....

I think you can blame it on the English language with all its exceptions to the rule. For example, the formation of superlatives (e.g hard becomes harder or hardest but good becomes better or best). :D (I ain't from the South but including :D to mean no offense).

Robert Vollman said... I had a manager once who used email for everything.
It all depends. I had an employee who would demand that everything be in an email or written form. He would email me and then come running over to ensure that I'd received the email.

alberto said...But IMHO the written word (email or letter) is still one of the best ways to communicate your ideas clearly and succinctly, and, especially, to avoid that emotions kick in and disrupt (language barriers aside).
It depends. Not all situations would benefit. Rachel was correct that some stuff might be better done face-to-face and then followed up with a written communique summarizing the discussion. On the other hand, I had experiences where the written summary was totally different than what was orally discussed and agreed upon which then generated a new set of meetings (both written and otherwise) :D :D

Tue Jul 26, 10:58:00 AM EDT  

Blogger David Aldridge said....


I must say that for an article describing Indian English as having higher grammatical standards, it makes painful reading ... I don't think that I would describe something as "most ubiquitous", nor would I use so many single quotes ('vernacular') ... rather inelegant phrasing throughout, I thought.

OK, cue the corrections to the above paragraph ...

Tue Jul 26, 12:54:00 PM EDT  

Blogger David Aldridge said....

Robert Vollman said... I had a manager once who used email for everything.
There are often "political" considerations here, I think. On one project I found a repeated pattern of discussions through email ending with a verbal decision from some party to the discussion. After a few occasions when the decision later turned out to be wrong and its very existence was actually denied, I found that I had to insist on getting everything documented through email ... love them office politicians, eh?

Tue Jul 26, 12:58:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Alberto Dell'Era said....

David Aldridge said : ...getting everything documented through email ...

Oh, political considerations aside, that's another reason to consider email discussions, namely that your ideas got documented, and people can find (and search for) them in their email repository even after months.

In fact I've noticed that, after face-to-face meetings, people normally remember *you*, not your *ideas* - exactly the opposite happens in email discussions. So depending on what I want to achieve, I'm better off choosing the appropriate channel.

Email tends (stress on *tends* ;) to cut off emotions, when discussing technical matters; it is a bless or a curse depending on the situations.

Tue Jul 26, 02:32:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Indian said....

Indian English is "pure" in one way because we use less four letter words than the British ;-)

Just kidding, don't take it seriously.

Tue Jul 26, 03:31:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Alberto Dell'Era said....

Perhaps Indian (Hindi ?) is heavily influenced by Latin (or the other way around) ?

That would explain why people from India prefer to use words such as "doubt" and "ubiquitous" - both English words coming straight from Latin (other examples being relational, data, base, table, index ... Oracle .. ;)

Tue Jul 26, 03:59:00 PM EDT  

Blogger David Aldridge said....


Here's an article on the subject

Tue Jul 26, 04:18:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Alberto Dell'Era said....

Well, the nearest common ancestor seems to be Indo-European - a bit too broad to call a similarity probably ... there it goes my career as an Etymologist, I'll run back to Oracle ;)

Tue Jul 26, 04:40:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Matthias Rogel said....

... that question has a fairly obvious (to me) and easy answer:


since tkyte says this (who is above reproach for some reason),
this must be true

Wed Jul 27, 07:16:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Thomas Kyte said....

Matthias Rogel said...

point was no one is above reproach so I didn't get the paranthetical "who is above reproach"...

So actually, it would make sense to say "since tkyte said this and he isn't above reproach it is debatable".

Wed Jul 27, 08:23:00 AM EDT  

Anonymous Matthias Rogel said....

only tried to make a job, don't worry

Wed Jul 27, 08:38:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Thomas Kyte said....

only tried to make a job

Freudian slip :) No worries.

Wed Jul 27, 08:47:00 AM EDT  

Blogger John Baughman said....

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Wed Jul 27, 12:51:00 PM EDT  

Blogger John Baughman said....

[After proofreading this, I decide to try it again...]

Ok, after reading this, I had to share...

Manager email: Employee1 being the laptop to the meeting.

Employee1 reply email: Is that like being the ball in Caddyshack?

Employee2 reply email: Employee1, BE the laptop!

Ok, you had to be there... But it did start a whole slew of ideas on how the employee could be the laptop, as long as he didn't have sit on anyone's lap. (If we closed the lid he would be quiet/his chair is his docking station/put him in the trunk when you went to the grocery store after work)

On a side note, during our meeting, part of which consisted of others at other sites, the speakerphone volume was quiet. I noted that this was a cost saving measure, the volume of conference calls. I pictured the person in charge of the phone system saying, "Ooooh, you meant the NUMBER of calls..."

I guess you had to be there too...

Wed Jul 27, 12:54:00 PM EDT  

Blogger DaPi said....

Joel said: Minion may be not quite what you expect.

True, but meanings drift away from their origins. My Shorter OED labels the more pleasant meanings (darling, lover, mistress etc) as obsolete or rare, and emphasises the less attractive ideas.

Wed Jul 27, 02:33:00 PM EDT  

Blogger DaPi said....

P.S. if you're interested in the OED, then The Meaning of Everything is a good read.

Wed Jul 27, 02:42:00 PM EDT  

Blogger GF said....

Like "Mr. Ktye", I prefer face to face (at least as a kick off for a project/issue). But I also insist what was discussed and the solution/to-do list be followed up in an email. I guess I spent too many years in a "cover your butt" atmosphere. Not real productive enviroment.

Sat Jul 30, 10:25:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Venky said....

I hope my comment is not too long.

On last and first names:

I was raised in South India where we have only one name for people, not two; ie no family name. eg: S.Balakrishnan, G.Ramesh, ... (Maybe that is how we ended up with longer names like JayaRajendraBhoopathi.)

When I first heard the name of person (on radio) with both first and last name I was confused. I was told by my mother they were 'north Indians, they have 2 names'. I was confused as to how to really call them.

When I got to college we had a 'Nardendar Singh' as classmate. We all called him Singh; Singh is shorter than Narendar.

When I got here to USA, I was calling most people from CIOs to colleagues by their first names. Same was the case in grocery stores or when you call a call center for help. When I go to places like hospitals I call them 'Doctor, nurse,..'. I have been living here more 9 years, I had never called a person by the last name and the need never arose. (Dont ask me what I write in my passport for my first and last names).


I have realized there are so many subtle ways things can be expressed while talking. People here in West at work places could get indirect in what they want to say.

On The Magic words 'Thanks' and 'Please':

I was raised in a small town down there, where people do not use the word 'Thanks' much, even though there is an equivalent of the word. But they do express thanks using body gestures - I have sensed it many times with a smile, with a 'see you', etc.

Here in West when you borrow a technical book from a colleague, you are expected to say 'Can I have the book please' and then 'Thanks'. Out there it is said in a way if I translate it, it becomes 'Give me the book'.

My analysis is it is because it is more of a collective society there and if you are in a group you are more expected to help others and helping a colleague with a book is a given and so need to say Thanks for that.

An interesting thing happened two years ago: After having lived here for 7+ years I went to an Indian family's home, who had just moved over to West. They cooked me lunch and I said "Thanks a lot. That was a great lunch". They did not like the Thanks. "Why are you making it so formal. We just invited you over, we had some lunch and talked, had some nice discussion. No need for thanks here." I was thinking about the whole thing. I had cultivated the habit of saying 'Thanks' and 'Please' after being here, but I did not make someone happy using the word Thanks.

Some Indians do not like me being a Westerner, saying Thanks and all. They think I am westernized. It is ok for them if an American says thanks, though. And if I dont say thanks to an American, well, that is not fitting into local culture.("How come you have not learnt the local customs after living here for this long?") If I say Thanks to Americans and not Indians then I can be accused of adopting 'double standards'.

I just watch what I see around me and learn the words, behavior. I think that is an easy way to adopt to newer circumstances.

Thu Aug 11, 07:16:00 PM EDT  


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