Thursday, June 30, 2005

Vulgarity

Yes, I've deleted a comment on my blog. It used a very inappropriate analogy. It is gone and others like it will go as well. It just isn’t needed.

Some people might say “well, it isn’t like kids are coming to read this”.  Well, they would be wrong.  I have two kids, a 12 year old boy and a 9 year old girl. They don’t need to see it. Also, my wife glances at this from time to time and I don’t think there is a female out there that wouldn’t have been offended on some level by the comment.

Worst of all – my mom reads this. I really don’t need that.

You may have noticed or not – but I don’t use what some people term ‘colorful’ language.  I never have really, and I doubt I will. You can ask those that know me, but that kind of stuff just isn’t in my vocabulary. I cringe when I hear it, it totally turns me off. 

So, maybe someone thinks it prudish, I don’t think so. If you have to use crude analogies or foul language to make your point – that is something you need to work on.

 

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36 Comments:

Blogger Bill S. said....

Good for you Tom! People tend to forget that when they post comments to a blog, it is just like putting a big neon sign on the side of your house - ANYBODY can see it, and anybody might. Not to mention that it's your blog, and you have every right to censor stuff you find offensive regardless of what anybody else thinks. I mean, this isn't a forum. ;-D

Thu Jun 30, 09:24:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Dilip said....

Tom,
Your writing style -- one of which is clean language -- has many a fan following, including me. Keep it likewise all the way.

Regards,

Dilip

Thu Jun 30, 11:43:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Tim... said....

I'm not a fan of censorship, but I do think people have the right to protect their own property.

As far as I'm concerned it's your site and you have the right to remove something if it offends you.

Fri Jul 01, 04:22:00 AM EDT  

Anonymous Justin Rowles said....

Just a thought... quite a few bloggers do this, and I agree that they and you absolutely have the right to do so. It would be nice though, to leave the post there but with the entire content replaced with 'Deleted due to foul language' or similar. Partly for 'name 'n' shame' reasons, but partly for preserving the structure of the thing. Sometimes it is confusing on blogs that support threaded comments.

Cheers,
J.

Fri Jul 01, 04:30:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Thomas Kyte said....

Justin Rowles said...

In this case, it was the last post to the "asktom will be unavailable" thread so removing it did not break the continuity.

And of course there were no names associated with it :)

If it had been referred to and followed up on, I would have left it as "comment removed by blog owner" so you could understand what the people might be referring to.

Fri Jul 01, 08:46:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Jeff Hunter said....

And of course there were no names associated with it :)
The downside of anonymity...sigh.

Fri Jul 01, 09:14:00 AM EDT  

Anonymous Martin said....

Tom,

Doesn't Blogger provide a way to ban users based on their IP adress? Foul / Insulting language is a good reason for censorship.

Regards,

Martin

Fri Jul 01, 10:13:00 AM EDT  

Blogger jimk said....

I agree. There is no need to use such language or anaolgies here. By getting rid of it you discourage others from repeating whatever inappropriate thing that occured.

This isn't a "locker room" blog.

Fri Jul 01, 11:59:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Thomas Kyte said....

And of course my mom called me last night right after I posted this to try and find out what was said :)

Fri Jul 01, 12:13:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Robert said....

your mom follows this blog too !? wahahaha !
I find it simply AMAZING that I have never seem cussing or foul words on AskTom, not a word ever.

Fri Jul 01, 01:28:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous dave said....

Why amazing that you never see anything. It is an oracle web site and is for professionals. I expect the same standards as I would from OTN for example

I would be very shocked if I did see any bad language (seen it once on askTom, wasnt from Tom though)

Fri Jul 01, 02:01:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Robert said....


Why amazing that you never see anything. It is an oracle web site and is for professionals.


uhmm cause it's on the Net ? cause 99% of the "Oracle professionals" I ever come across don't talk exactly like a pastor ?

Fri Jul 01, 02:20:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Bill S. said....

thomas kyte said:
" And of course my mom called me last night right after I posted this to try and find out what was said :)"

Ah, but does she ever provide content, like Dave Letterman's mom? ;-D

Fri Jul 01, 04:04:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Robert Vollman said....

I couldn't imagine my mom ever reading my Oracle blog - or even my personal blog for that matter.

But I agree with Mrs. Kyte - I found myself curious about what was said!

This is the Internet - no amount of vulgarity or inappropriateness would surprise me.

So just delete it - no big deal.

Fri Jul 01, 08:08:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Rachel said....

Perfectly reasonable to me that you deleted the comment. It is, after all, YOUR blog. Your rules apply.

I had a similar situation on the oracle-l-ot list this past week, we had to remove a member who refused to moderate his language, even after repeated warnings...

I think it's way more fun to insult someone using perfectly proper English in any case. Vulgarity is the refuge of those who can't be creative.

Oh -- new book for you -- The Genesis Code by John Case :)

Sat Jul 02, 10:01:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Thomas Kyte said....

Rachel said...

don't get me wrong, the posting wasn't personally insulting about *me*, rather the opposite actually. It was the wholly inappropriate use of a analogy that ruined the entire thing. The kind of analogy I might expect to hear from a 16 year old boy trying to be cool in front of his (male) friends.

ka-ching go the amazon coffers once again.

Sat Jul 02, 10:12:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Renee said....

Someone suggested editing the commment to remove the offensive piece.

Unfortunately, at this point with Blogger comments, the blog owner only has the option of removing the entire comment, not editing it. At least that's how it was the last time I had to clean up something on my own blog. And God knows I'll still need that ability again, come election time. Oy, politics bring out some real nastiness in people!

I'm glad you deleted whatever the comment was and I'm glad you mentioned your mom and wife as part of the reason for doing so. Chivalry is not dead. Yay!

Sat Jul 02, 11:16:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Rachel said....

May I (as the daughter of an ex-librarian) gently remind you of the local public library and their ability to "reserve" books? About half the ones I read are from that source, as not every book is one I want to keep, even if I want to read it. As long as the book is somewhere in the county system I can get it. It may take awhile, but I have a huge backlog of purchased books to read in the interim.

And the comments on the ot list were not personally directed to me either (the private ones were, and remained unanswered)... but we kept asking him to use other language to describe the groups he was talking about and he refused.

Sat Jul 02, 06:47:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Thomas Kyte said....

library? what is this thing?

Actually, I like collecting the books I read now. The kids use the library all of the time though.

I do remember the library well, I was there two or so times a week as a kid at least. They had this neat device no one had seen before.

For 5 cents, you could actually take a picture of a page home with you forever if you needed. It was called a Xerox.

Many hours at the Bethlehem Public Library in PA. I should go back and see if it is anywhere near as big as I remember it ;)

Sat Jul 02, 07:09:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Rachel said....

I remember trips to the library with my family when I was a kid -- within 10 minutes I had a stack of books at least 10 deep. My Dad would look at me and say "Well, the rest of us aren't ready to leave, what are you going to do now?". My answer was "read" of course. I'd usually finish a book before they were ready to go.

There are authors I collect and books I will buy because I know I will want to read and re-read them again and again. There are also books I read just for the "brain candy" effect (think "chick lit" books) and then there are books I will take from the library, read, and then go and buy my own copy to keep.

I had 40 boxes of books when I moved. I have 7 LARGE bookcases and they are already overflowing. I need a larger house. Or a library of my own

Sat Jul 02, 09:09:00 PM EDT  

Blogger fuzzyllamaduck said....

Thomas Kyte said, "...it was the last post to the 'asktom will be unavailable' thread..."

Hmm, I was the only other poster on that thread. Makes me wonder if the vulgarity was about me?!

Thanks Tom for helping to protect the llamas!

http://www.fritriac.de/looky/alien_llama_mutilation.jpg

Sun Jul 03, 03:56:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous dave said....

well your posts are still there so how could it be you?

think about it .....

Sun Jul 03, 07:56:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Robert said....


dave said....
well your posts are still there so how could it be you?
think about it .....


Uhmm, he was wondering if the vulgarity was ABOUT HIM.

Mon Jul 04, 12:21:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Tim... said....

It seems Robert Freeman may be having "Blog Comment" problems of his own:

http://robertgfreeman.blogspot.com/2005/07/removal-of-comments.html

It's a pity people feel the need to ruin other peoples fun.

Cheers

Tim...

Mon Jul 04, 02:48:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Joel Garry said....

I bet the bloggers that are now "free" will have ads thrust upon them within the next couple of years. Will you be offended when your picture is next to (and all these could appear on prime-time tv, so presumably are ok with even the relatively conservative FCC):

A competitor.

Some senator.

Famous Author.

Something you would have to buy.

Carefree.

(And even I'm too offended to post the link to the anti-choice group that has choice in its name).

Mon Jul 04, 01:41:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Thomas Kyte said....

joel garry said

"Yeah but", I would have the option of not participating in such a forum if I wanted. Or, I can pay for it instead of getting the ad's.

When given the choice "use the free version full of ads or pay us for the service and not see the ads" - I've always gone down the "I'll pay you" path after testing the software.

Funny thing, as I was working on Effective Oracle by Design with WROX, before they went out of business - they were promoting my book on their site. Their site had banner ads. The banner ad somehow paired with my book? It was for SQLServer. Got that worked out.

DBAZine had my links and my name and image on some pages for a promotion they were doing. Some of the pages hasd articles I felt were really "not good", technically inaccurate, got that worked out, no reference to me on pages I did not agree with.

Amazon.com had my book paired with another author I didn't care to be paired with with it first came out. Worked with publisher, who worked with Amazon, got that worked out.

These are all fixable problems, and they happen already, constantly.

Mon Jul 04, 02:15:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Joel Garry said....

These are all fixable problems, and they happen already, constantly.

If they keep happening, they're not really fixable, wouldn't you say?

The problem appears intractable to me, as there is no reliable feedback mechanism to know when you are being associated with those you'd rather not, as well as being blocked without notice by software you've never heard of. (I had a page on my site blocked for I-don't-know-how-long, simply because of the filename of the page. I only found out because I was bored waiting in a Kinko's one day and decided to see what it looked like on their big monitor.)

Tue Jul 05, 07:04:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Thomas Kyte said....

If they keep happening, they're not really fixable, wouldn't you say?

But I'm not sure where you are going with this thought...

Each was a different occurence, a a different thing, a different problem.

and each was fixable.

so -- blogs get ads, I either

a) stop
b) pay and get no ads


I've already done that with the poll site I use, and the hit counter site, and ....

but they are all individually fixable.

Tue Jul 05, 07:48:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Mark G said....

"You may have noticed or not – but I don’t use what some people term ‘colorful’ language. I never have really, and I doubt I will. You can ask those that know me, but that kind of stuff just isn’t in my vocabulary. I cringe when I hear it, it totally turns me off."

This is so refreshing to hear!

I'm absolutely disappointed in the language content that people use in I.T. profession these days.

Well for that matter I'm disappointed in general the language content that people use.

You wouldnt think that those who come from such an "advanced society" is so "advanced" afterall based upon "language content" we use.

It's a breath of fresh air to know there are a "number" of people who expect people to conduct themselves in an appropriate manner(e.g. language)...

Wed Jul 06, 10:27:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Joel Garry said....

If they keep happening, they're not really fixable, wouldn't you say?

But I'm not sure where you are going with this thought...

Each was a different occurence, a a different thing, a different problem.

and each was fixable.


Well, if you keep getting 7445 errors, and a guru tells you to flush your shared pool, and the problem goes away for a while, how long until you decide flushing the shared pool really isn't fixing it?

I see these affinity problems as evidence of a single deeper problem, I can understand if you don't. What I see missing is the instrumentation to evaluate whether there is a problem. Perhaps at your level you are well-known enough that any strangeness will be brought to your attention, and that overcomes the failings inherent in a manual and voluntary notification process. But that certainly would be the exception.

So was your first clue about Amazon from my usenet post laughing about it?

Now we have the online Oracle community splitting into a bunch of cliques. Some who feel left out of the cliques will lash out in destructive ways.

Which came first, the rejection or the anti-social behavior?

Wed Jul 06, 01:47:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Thomas Kyte said....

Well, if you keep getting 7445 errors

If I keep getting the same error for the same reason, I haven't fixed anything.

Like I said, I had three distinct different issues, all were permanently "fixed".

Maybe it is because I am well known enough -- that people point things out to me (I get emails pointing to places where my material is republished without any sort of pointer back to the source, where something is said regarding me, etc). That does help I suppose.

So was your first clue about Amazon from my usenet post

I did not see that, I would just like to state that I've been paired with many books and I'm not pointing a finger at any single book!

Now we have the online Oracle

Why "now" ;) It seems to go way back in time, over a decade for me at the very least.

Wed Jul 06, 01:56:00 PM EDT  

Blogger Robert said....

Right on, Tom!
I appriciate your stance and example on "vulgarity".
Thanks,
Robert.

Thu Jul 07, 10:04:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Joel Garry said....

Why "now" ;) It seems to go way back in time, over a decade for me at the very least.

Which and when public online Oracle community were you on first besides Compuserve or usenet? (or something else I'm drawing a blank on... bbsnet? ) I recall thinking 15 years ago the oracle online community was much more egalitarian and helpful than the usual bbs "prove yourself and you can join us" mentality. Not that there haven't forever been flames on usenet... :-)

Thu Jul 07, 10:07:00 AM EDT  

Blogger Thomas Kyte said....

Which and when public online Oracle community were you on first besides Compuserve or usenet?

I was referring to usenet. I Remember some very big flames burning on there. Perhaps you didn't experience the "prove yourself" on them because you grew up with them. I had to prove myself on some of the other groups -- and even the comp.databases.oracle.* ones (with an oracle.com address, making a comment in the informix, sybase, or database groups in general made me more of a target in the beginning :)

Thu Jul 07, 10:18:00 AM EDT  

Blogger John Baughman said....

I think your use of words that are neither vulgar or obscene (similar definitions?) is quite commendable. I have worked with my son (14 and he gets in the rut of talking like a drunken sailor on shore leave because of his other teenage friends) to chose words that are more intelligent and more descriptive than a simple four letter word that fits better in a biker bar than in a normal conversation.

I my opinion, those kind of words have their place, here or in a technology setting is not one of them.

Tue Jul 12, 04:03:00 PM EDT  

Anonymous Basil Faulty said....

I think there is a place for obscenity in the professional world.

http://www.ravenousplankton.com/17f/1/mnemonicdevices.html

http://everything.blockstackers.com/index.pl?node_id=481225

Sorry, couldn't resist to throw a rock in this pond. There is something disturbing in social groups without an opposition.

Thu Jul 14, 09:57:00 AM EDT  

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